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“The Wrath” and “the Trib”: what’s the difference?

· by · In: The Future and Endtime, Insights Tagged: , , , , , ,

(Warning.This is “wonkish”. That means this post isn’t written for those who are new to the subject of Bible prophecy and the endtime.)

When I wrote the post I called “Introducing ‘Pre’ and ‘Post’ ”, I was aimed at those who are new to the whole subject. In that post I was explaining some of the basic concepts and terms in the study of the times leading up to the second coming of Jesus. And I explained how the Scriptures point to this time to be, in the words that Jesus used, a time of “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21).

But there are many people, especially here in the States, who are more familiar with this subject and already have a pretty good idea of what some say is going to be the scenario leading up to the Lord’s return. On the other hand, my contact with friends recently at church has led me to feel that there’s still quite a lot that is not clear for many people.

Last Sunday I shared a class in adult Sunday school on Daniel chapter 7. Afterwards a friend came up to me and said, “I’m a pre-Triber”. I knew what he meant. But I wondered how many of the folks who read these posts know what that means.

Some of you know the phrases “pre-tribulation rapture” and “post tribulation rapture”. In modern times, the vast majority of the evangelical believers are strong believers in pre-tribulation rapture. This is the doctrine that Christ will have a “rapture” before “the Great Tribulation” for one set of believers, generally considered to be the Gentile church. And then, at the end of the Tribulation, He will return and gather together the Jewish Christians that have had to go through the Great Tribulation.

I’m sure alarm bells will go off with some of you in my generalization there. But, broadly speaking, that’s the idea. The most famous, far reaching publication that postulates this position is “The Left Behind series”. These are a series of fictitious books, written by Tim LeHaye, about the endtime and are based on the preTribulation rapture view of Jesus’ second coming. Over 70 million copies of the books have been sold. Generally, if you’re in an evangelical or charismatic church, chances are you’ve never heard anything other than this “pre-Tribulation” teaching on the return of Jesus and the Rapture of believers.

But there’s a lot more to it than that. I could start by telling you that for 1800 years the view of Christian teachers almost universally was not the “pre-Trib” view but the “post-Trib” view. That is, there were not going to be two gatherings of the people of God, but one. And that the believers of the endtime would go through the Great Tribulation.

Around 11 years ago here in Austin one of the leading pastors in the city talked with me about this and recommended a book for me to read, which I did. (By the way, I’ve written more about this conversation and experience in a blog post called  “Sound Doctrine?” or Speculation.)

The book that my pastor recommended is called “The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church”, written by Marvin Rosenthal. Basically Mr. Rosenthal came to believe, from reading God’s Word, that the believers of the endtime would be raptured or gathered together before the Wrath of God is poured out but that they will go through the time of Great Tribulation.

So I just think of you reading this and how some will know totally what I am talking about. But quite a few won’t. This is getting down to intricacies that my study on the book of Daniel will hardly be able to touch on, even if we go through all the prophetic chapters in Daniel.

These things that Marvin Rosenthal is speaking of have to do with the time immediately after the Great Tribulation. The clearest place this is spoken of is in Revelations 11. In verse 15 it is speaking of the seventh trumpet, “the last trump”, the one that signals the return of Jesus. It says “The seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.’”

But what happens next? Revelations 11:18, three verses later says: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

What happens next is the reward of the saints in heaven while down on earth begins the period of the Wrath of God, spoken of most plainly in Revelations 16.

I Thessalonians 5:9 says, “God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ”. Romans 5:9 says something similar, “…we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”

I strongly agree with what Mr. Rosenthal saw in the Word of God, that the believers of the endtime will not go through the period of the wrath of God on earth, which immediately follows the Lord’s gathering of the saved at the end of the Great Tribulation. So there is a clear distinction between the Wrath and the Tribulation that many believers who study these things don’t always see clearly.

And even more than this, the whole term “the Tribulation” is often just not clearly defined by many I meet who study these things. In my classes and videos, the term “the Great Tribulation” will mean the 3½ year period immediately before the Lord’s gathers His saved. This is the second half of what is called “The Last 7 Years”, referring to Daniel’s 70th week, found in Daniel 9:27.

I don’t teach or believe that this entire 7 year period, Daniel’s 70th week, is a time of great tribulation, only the second half. From my interaction with Christians here over the last 6 months or so, it seems many, if not most, don’t know or understand these different periods of time and don’t see them clearly and distinctly. I hope that I can bring the light of Scripture more clearly onto these subjects, as my blog posts and videos continue.

[If you have questions, comments or even disagreements, I’d love to hear from you. You can use the reply box at the bottom of this page.]

“Did he really say that?”

· by · In: The Future and Endtime, Basic Christianity Tagged: , ,

When you start talking about the possibility of a spiritual world, life after death, and prophecies fulfilled, some people just have a sudden shut down of their mind or emotions. It’s a real wrench because it just goes counter to almost everything they’ve generally held to be true.

I know this because I went through that exact experience and it was not easy. It was really difficult. But also it was a real liberation. I wanted the truth, no matter what, even if it meant there actually was a real God, just like I’d always been told, ha!

And if you’re here, reading part 3 of this series, then maybe you’re willing to “give this an ear”, as they say in English. Maybe there have been a few true prophets, right? Maybe there is some kind of world other than the one we can see and feel and move around in daily. Maybe Jesus of Nazareth was more than just some carpenter from Israel that the Romans killed 2000 years ago.

Did Jesus say he would return to this world?

So you might wonder, “Did he really say that? Did Jesus say he would return to this world?”

Yes, he did. The night before he was arrested, he was in Jerusalem with his most trusted followers, privately celebrating with them the Jewish Passover. Here’s one of the things Jesus is recorded as telling his closest friends that night. “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.” 1

Jesus was telling them that he was about to leave them and go “somewhere else.” But he told them he would return so that they could be where he was. And it wasn’t like all of them totally understood what he was telling them. Far from it. In fact, he’d already told them repeatedly some months earlier that

The Son of Man [this is how Jesus referred to himself] will be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.2

Did his followers understand that when he told them? No. The next thing the Bible says is “But they did not understand that saying and were afraid to ask Him.” 3

Even the closest followers of Jesus during his life on earth often just didn’t totally get what he was saying. It was not until after his death and resurrection, when he appeared to them again, repeatedly, that they began to get the full picture of what he truly was and what he taught.

But after he began to appear to them, after he rose from the dead… (Yes, I know, I’m asking you to believe another preposterous thing: Jesus rising from the dead!) Well, that’s what he told his followers would happen, that he’d be crucified and rise again, even though they didn’t understand it.

So after he rose from the dead, the followers were asking him if he was at that time going to establish his kingdom on earth4. It’s clear they were aware that something was still left to happen.

Jesus was with them for 40 days after his resurrection. Then the Bible says, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight. 5

His followers were there and saw this happen. It goes on to say, And while they were looking intently into the heaven after Jesus had gone up, two men in white clothing [angels!] stood beside them, who said, “Why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven.” 6

So there it is again. He is going to come again. He was “taken up into Heaven”. But he is destined to return again to this world.

Maybe that’s a lot to swallow. Or at least a lot to think about. I know when I first read all this, or was taught it by someone who knew the Bible, it radically changed my whole outlook of life, reality and the world I lived in. Either this is all just completely crazy or it’s true. And I just didn’t feel inside of me that it was crazy. There was too much that I’d already experienced or seen that pointed towards these things being the actual experiences of people who saw all this and recorded it for everyone then and from then on.

And I guess it wasn’t just one time only when my viewpoints and earlier views of life were fundamentally challenged. There were a number of times when I was just left in shock and awe at what I read in the Bible. It took some time to digest it all, to ponder the significance of it for myself personally and for what it also meant to every person living in this world.

In the next post in this series, we’re going to look further at this whole concept of Jesus’ return to this world. What would it mean to all of us? What will the conditions be like when it happens? How would it change things? When will it happen? Our next class is called “Who is Armageddon anyway?”

Talk to you soon, Mark

1  Gospel of John, chapter 14, verses 2 and 3
2 Gospel of Mark, chapter 9, verse 31
3 Gospel of Mark, chapter 9, verse 32
4  See Acts chapter 1, verse 6
5 Acts chapter 1, verse 9
6 Acts chapter 1, verses 10 and 11

“The sky is falling!”

· by · In: The Future and Endtime, Insights, Current events, Basic Christianity, Angels, Miracles and the spirit world Tagged: , , , ,

sky is falling part 1Believe it or not, I heard once that the phrase, “May you live in interesting times”  is actually a Chinese curse! But it does seem we live in interesting times. Of course some people are like what Jesus said about folks in the time of Noah, “they knew not till the flood came and carried them all away.”  (Matthew 24:39) Some just never pay much attention to “the signs of the times” (Matthew 16:3).

On the other hand, there are a lot of people everywhere now who are really concerned that something serious is about to happen. Some thought that 2012 was extremely propitious and that omens abounded for sudden cataclysmic change. Others look at the economic situation in Europe and fear a further slide into times unseen since the 1930’s. And they know what those times brought on. Some closely watch events in the Middle East and see a potential horrific war resulting from a military attack by Israeli against Iran. And if you are an American, you may see dire consequences if the presidential candidate you opposed in the election won the presidency. All in all, there are quite a lot of folks who are seriously concerned about the current crises that are bubbling and boiling around the world.

But not everyone. Perhaps equally if not more are the people who don’t notice or just aren’t disturbed by the current crises. Many are completely preoccupied with their own personal difficulties of finding a job, paying their bills and taking care of their families. And the rest see “the distress of nations, men’s hearts failing them for fear” (Luke 21: 25 & 26) but don’t feel things will get out of hand. Like the saying goes in Australia, “It’ll come round, mate.” Which translates to, “Everything will be ok” or “Don’t worry, be happy.”sky is falling part 2

But if you’re a Christian and look for times that foreshadow the ones leading up to the Lord’s return, then all this does take on a larger dimension. Are we seeing events that will lead into the final days that Jesus and Jewish prophets foretold? And here is where things get even more divided.

Many are adamant that “this is it”. Conspiracy theories abound. On the other hand, those who don’t believe any of that are equally resolute. They assert that talk of the collapse of society and the economy, a looming one world government and such assorted fears are just coming from absolutely nuts, crazy kooks and often deluded religious extremists.

Who’s right? Is something about to happen? Should we be prepared? Is there even any way to prepare? Which side are you on? Which side am I on?

Here’s what I think: be prepared either way. Honestly, I’ve felt something dire was possibly very near. But I’ve felt that for over 40 years. You may not agree but I believe the world is pretty much held together by belief or confidence. And confidence is fragile, for individuals, societies or the world at large. In my life I came to where God in heaven just pulled the plug on it because I was so far out of His will. And also He had a better plan for me. So He in essence said, “Time’s up.”  In the Bible God is quoted as saying, “My Spirit will not always strive with man, for he that being often warned and hardens his heart shall suddenly be destroyed.”  (Genesis 6:3, Proverbs 29:1) And on the other hand, God is more patient and merciful than any of us can imagine. But it can come to a time, a tipping point when the goose is cooked, the genie is out of the bottle and you can’t go back to Kansas, to mix several metaphors there.

Will that happen? When? Will we just have another 50 years of muddling through? Or are we really nearing a precipice, descending into worldwide chaos, leading to the final events foretold in the Bible?

I’ve tried to be prepared either way. I want to live for the world to come. That means not placing my trust in “uncertain riches” (I Timothy 6:17) or “laying up treasures on earth” (Matthew 6:19). It means that I put my relationship with the Lord first and I’m prepared, as much as is possible, for any sudden events, local or national. My “weapons” and defense aren’t based on physical things, guns or militias. My preparedness is in and of the Spirit of God. My dependence is on His protection and provision. If I’m doing that, then come what breakdown or disruption may be, I’ve put my trust in the “System” that’s never going to break down, the “government” that’s never going to fail me, and the one that’s ultimately going to survive and run this world the way it should be run. Either way, approaching chaos or another 50 years of surviving the storms of this world, my choice is to settle my life on the Rock of God and His will and blessings. What do you think? I hope you’ll do the same.